Hehe, I didn't quite get the fifth one (unless it's the play on the (l)eggs thing?) but the others were funny. As for the whole religion vs science, I don't think that has stopped at all, and I would still definitely subscribe to a blog about it if you started one.

I myself am an Atheist (the capital letter was intentional). I see religions as nothing but a large cult started as a way to brainwash people in to having morals and ethics, but unfortunately it went wrong and created the mess that is religion. As one person on TV once said, "without religion bad people do bad things, and good people do good things, but with religion good people do good things". Having said that; I have a few religious friends and as long as they do not preach to me and accept my views, I won't 'disrespect' them or anything.

"but with religion good people do good things"

Should be:

"but with religion good people do bad things"

:P

Very clever. I'd second the notion that the movement to include "intelligent design" in science classrooms is not over. It's definitely lost a lot of steam thankfully, but there are still people out there wanting to put it in schools, including the idiot we have running the country over here across the pond. Ugh!

I believe that religion is a good thing when it comes to educate people good manners and ethics. Nothing more!

And when people start killing eatch other because of religions I just shake my had and wish that this world would be some better place to lieve.

If I meet an alien sometime, I won't admit that I come from this planet calles earth :) - It's just a shame sometimes!!!

The thing is, religion is a way of threatening people to have good manners and ethics. If you don't act nice you'll "go to hell". The reality is, you get these extremists who start taking religion in to their own hands and doing what they think "god" is ethical.

Coming from a Christian background, the problem I see with Creationism has little to do with religion and more to do with the human need to be have what one believes to be right, often at the expense of trying to find out what is really true. I think that its quite clear that if God exists as Christians believe, He didn't consult the creationists as to how He put things together.

As far as religion in general is concerned, a lot of the moral precepts (honesty, charity, respect for others, faithfulness in marriage, etc.), that they espouse are generally those things that benefit society. The failure occurs when those precepts are ignored by people who prefer to let others do their thinking for them and by those who use and twist religion to gain wealth and power/control over others. We've seen it throughout history and we see it today. I have a few dedicated Christian friends whom I greatly respect but what I see as the overwhelming misuse/abuse of religion is what causes me to seriously question the reality of God.

I'm a new Christian myself and simply don't see Creation vs Evolution as a very important debate. Sure, it's worth thinking about but when people get riled up about it it's kind of saddening. And yes, I'm fully in agreement that extremist views are bad in religion, they're often bad elsewhere too.

As for the subject matter, I follow the creationist line of thought but don't rule out Evolution, it happens but we didn't evolve from Monkeys.

Please do not judge me until you finish reading my statement!

I am a Christian. However, I am also a engineer. I mention this because I am quite scientific in my thinking. I have no problem accepting evolution as the how and God as the why (to quote South Park). I also do not believe that Creation (or the not so clever mask Intelligent Design) should be taught in science classes... because it's not science.

What I have to take issue with here is the attitude that Christians are somehow blind to reality. I believe that the major problem that Christianity suffers from is the same thing that politics suffers from (imagine that... religion and politics in the same sentence!). Some individual are so passionate about what they believe that they are not willing to listen to other ideas and are not willing to have any kind of intellectual discussion about it. If you disagree with them then you must be wrong. As a Christian I am sick and tired of my fellow Christians giving me a bad name (much like my Muslim friends are sick and tired of being associated with terrorism).

Please don't judge all Christians or Christianity by the ignorant actions of a few. I believe that those that you all have spoken of are missing the point of Christianity. I say this about the various denominations all the time. When people argue about whether they should be baptist or methodist or other... they've missed the point.

If anyone is interested in helping their Christian friends (or yourself) I would highly recommend a book series (just 3 books) called 'A New Kind of Christian.'

Teifion: You're correct, we didn't evolve from monkeys. However, all simians - monkeys and apes, including the five species of great ape (Chimpanzees, Bonobos, Orang Utans, Gorillas and Humans) - did evolve from a common ancestor. The evidence precludes any other conclusion.

Confucius or Buddah (??) once said it is good for man to be born with religion, and bad to die with it. Meaning that's where you get a good moral background, but you must begin to think for yourself as you mature.

Actually, Lewis, atheism is just another religious view, and is therefore no different to any other religious view, such as Budhism, Islam, Confucianism, Hinduism, Christianity.

Regarding creation/ evolution, the only question is, what actually happened? How did the place come into being? Both the atheist/ evolutionist point of view and the creationist point of view are religious points of view. To find out which one is right - and they are mutually exclusive - we have to examine the evidence. My impression is that most atheists are not willing to do that because if the creation model fits the evidence better than the evolution model they would have to acknowledge there is a creator and they could no longer be atheists.

Creationists have the same problem, but not as acute, because they can more easily compromise by saying that God used evolution to create the universe.

But the evidence, how does that go? Ideally we would approach it with an open mind, but as I have just said, none of us has an open mind. We all have our biases.

Try this: Write down what evidence you would expect with an evolution model, and what evidence you would expect with a creation model. This exercise itself will help, because it will show you what both sides are actually saying, rather than what you think they're saying. Then examine each piece of evidence and put it in the column for either evolution or creation, depending on how the evidence stacks up.

Then honestly re-assess your religious viewpoint on the basis of the results.

Disclaimer: Take care. This is a dangerous exercise if done properly.

Actually, Willem, you're dead wrong on all counts.

Evolution is a scientific theory. It is the best explanation for all the evidence of life on Earth, observed reality, and falsifiable testing.

Creationism is not - it's based on mythology. You say it "fits" better, but your problem is one of understanding the difference between science and faith. Creationism requires faith - faith in a supernatural god who is not falsifiable.

Can I prove that god does not exist? No. Can you prove that he does? No. Can you disprove the existence of Zeus or Shiva or Vishnu or leprechauns or aliens? No. And that doesn't make them real, does it?

Belief in god (in fact, belief in any religion) is a belief in something supernatural. The key word being SUPER - beyond nature, which we with our five senses cannot observe.

Evolution is based entirely on science - science being a process of observed reality and falsifiable testing. And evolution is certainly falsifiable, but only through evidence, observed reality, and falsifiable testing. If you want to say "evolution is false" then prove it - don't just default to the primitive notion that our ancestors did: "I don't understand this, so there must be a force/entity/being greater than myself who created it."

The fact is that every single piece of evidence - every fossil, every living thing, every observation, every piece of research is another piece of the puzzle and the picture that puzzle forms is one of a process of evolution by natural selection.

Your sense of reason is seriously, fundamentally flawed when you try to equate faith in the supernatural with the observed realities of nature.

When someone comes along and says they believe God created the world and that evolution and therefore all of modern natural sciences (biology, zoology, genetics, and so on) are false, the onus is on them to prove it. All the evidence supports science because the science is based on the evidence.

Your evidence is a book writted thousands of years ago by some nameless member of primitive superstitious humans.

All the Creationist literature you'll read is focused solely on disproving evolution - finding "holes" in the theory. And evolution is full of holes, but that's fine in science. Science is not based on tearing down that to which evidence points. Science is finding the best explanation for an observed phenomenon, testing that explanation as new evidence arises.

So, tell us, what is the observable evidence that's points towards the creation story? I can't wait to hear this one.

Let me grab some popcorn.

I find it interesting that neither Pat nor Dave is willing to take up the challenge of testing the evidence to see which model - evolution or creation - fits the evidence the best. Why not apply that test? Isn't science actually the testing of hypotheses to see which hypothesis is the one most likely to be correct?

Dave, I did not say that atheism is a religion; I said it is a religious view. Which it is, because it is, by definition, a view of God.

You also say that science cannot be based on faith. Exactly what do you mean? Evolution is based on the faith that there is no God. Creation is based on the faith that there is. Either could be wrong, so both are faiths.

As I keep on saying, the real question is, what actually happened? How did the place come into being? The question 'Is there a God/ isn't there a God?' isn't the question being discussed. It may be the answer, but it isn't the question. The question is 'What actually happened? How did the place come into being?'

To really get at the answer to this question we need to be able to ask ourselves 'If the atheist/ evolution presupposition is correct, does the evidence fit? And then we've got to also ask ourselves 'If the creationist presupposition is correct, does the evidence fit?

If we are not willing to do that, then we have eliminated one option without examining it, all because we don't believe that it is science! That is a faith based decision! It is certainly not science!

What if the creationists are right and the universe was created, and we just keep on saying 'Huh, that's not science, so we can't examine that. ' We just cut ourselves off from what might be the truth without even examining it! Is that 'science?' To not even examine all options? That sounds more like faith to me!

True science will examine all the options, because that is the only way to get to the truth.

Willem.

Science is knowledge, etymologically speaking. Contrariwise, any system of thought that purports dogmatically something that is not provable is called faith. Atheism, Christianity, Evolution, and Creationism are all forms or parts of faith. The single biggest difference between Atheism and Evolution, and Christianity and Creation is that Christianity and Creation are admittedly faith, while Atheism tries to call itself a simple scientific understanding. It flies in the face of a simple realization that logically speaking, thought not at all imperically, there must be an immaterial first cause. It is easy enough to see in light of energy conservation and entropy that there must be something external to all of this that is responsible for bringing it all about.

Darwin said himself in his acclaimed work on the subject that the evidence lay necessarily in transitional forms and their fossil evidence (Origins, Chapter 10 [end]). However that has been given up on, in light of a lack of fossil evidence. What we have now is not his graduated equilibrium, but the punctuated equilibrium. The idea that life-forms would give birth to far evolved species that would then go on to breed their newfound traits with another like life. However, that requires a male and female of the new species be present at each genetic turn. It is not reasonable to think that such a thing is so. It is necessary to stretch the imagination and to allow for millions (1,000,000) of years (roughly 4.5 billion [1,000,000,000] by modern estimates) to have passed in order to allow for such an incredible story to be so. I do not mean to be antagonistic when I say that allowing for evolution to happen is tantamount to saying that the moon must be made of green cheese because there is no proof to the contrary.

Here is my hypothesis: Evolution, Romanism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, atheism, and agnosticism, etc. are all forms of faith. Agnosticism is the most internally consistent of those that do not rely on Scriptures. An agnosticism that allows that there is a God and seeks him is a well-reasoned one. One that says that he is unknowable is nearly as absurd as Atheism, because it again is a statement borne out of ignorance not proof (another faith in scholarly clothes). For my part, I am a Christian and I believe in a literal 6-day creation and a young earth. Why? Because the Bible says so. How foolish is that? This foolish: If I believe it because some other silly Christian says that science and history say it is so, then I am subjecting God's word to the words of men. That is silly. And if I believe it because that day some scientist makes a finding that is in support of the Bible, then I am again subjecting the Word of God to fallible men. I believe the Bible because it is God's Word and says that it is. (Circuitous reasoning - much like atheism.) And while it may seem absurd, it is not more absurd than atheism, rather it is far less, because I don't have to fight against nature to believe there is a God, and I readily admit that there is not enough proof for what I believe, it is faith, but the atheist cannot prove his hypothesis and still says he is in accordance with science (knowledge) which it is not and he is not.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 14.1a

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans 1:21

I suppose that it is late to add this, but in keeping with Mr. Child's previous post, I mean to explain a couple of definitons: fool - biblically speaking is anyone who is void of the knowledge of God, so its meaning could almost be equivalent to the word atheist in the ending verses. Though in context I think I only used it of myself, in the more contemporary way. Ignorance above is not meant in its current, derogatory sense, but in the sense of lacking knowledge, from the same root as agnostic, simply meaing without 'gnosis' or knowledge. Science is synonymous with gnosis, both meaning knowledge though generally in different contexts. I included the meaning of million and billion to avoid the UK/US difference between the two. I have here used the US meaning, but expounded in context. I am sorry for the verbose explanation of my verbiage.

If it were the position of every semantically careful atheist to say that they do not believe there is a god, I suppose that could be fair. Suppose. It is a presupposition based in a lack of evidence, however, that there is no God.

But honestly, saying that you don't believe there is a god, with such a careful distinction, sounds more like agnosticism. Atheism is the assertion, positively that there is not a god. Etymologically, "a-" means "no". That is then a positive assertion, so the onus is on the atheist to prove that no god exists.

> You may want to check that [punctuated equilibrium], because it shows your points to be either willfully ignorant or just plain deceptive.

That is a large assertion, it would be worth it to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium .

> That would be a different theory to evolution, and one that would be unsupported by the evidence. I've not heard of any scientists claiming something as ridiculous as this ever took place.

While I agree with you that it is unsupported by evidence, I am afraid the same is true of Phyletic Gradualism. I did not dream either up. And while Darwin's theory fails, in light of his ignorance of cellular and molecular biology, and lack of fossil evidence that has so far followed his death, punctuated equilibrium has come alongside to fill the void. The old stance (Phyletic Gradualism) can be found on Wikipedia.org: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyletic_gradualism

It is not willful deception; rather the contrary is true. Those institutions that suggest that the idea of transitional forms is alive and well are leaving up old straw men. While Darwin's finches and the Pepper Moth are examples of survival of the fittest, they are not examples of beneficial genetic mutation. I will be happy to agree that "survival of the fittest" is not only a viable model but active. However, I don't see any positive changes in the animal kingdom's gene pool, only negative: sickle cell anemia, Down's syndrome, cancers, etc.

About the Bible: You said let's focus on one issue. But you listed out many (unless you meant that the Bible is one issue). I suppose we could try to argue many, point by point, but that is going to be a while in coming. I will argue that the Bible and the Calvinism that logically results are both internally consistent, and without flaw. However, if either has a fault, it would be my understanding first, and Calvinism second, the Bible remains true. My willingness to maintain that this is so, in light of the seeming contradictions may seem irrational, (and maybe it is). But I would argue that it is faith, which the Bible lauds. However, to hold fast to atheism despite the transcendent nature of the order of our creation, etc. is also based on a lack of evidence, but is never called faith, rather is strangely and gleefully termed "infidelity", and while it is, it is still a form of presupposition. There is still a lack of evidence.

By the way, while I know this is not the forum for it, I really dig your cheat sheets for CSS, HTML, PHP, etc. Thanks for the hard work.

Very Sincerely, David

I don't see the point in making fun of either point of view because no one can fully prove their point. I believe in a little of both. Created and then evolved into what we are now, but I do find the cartoons funny.

Sorry to double post but, I just thought I would add this.

It seems a lot of people get uppity about this issue. I am Christian, but I have many agnostic/atheist friends. No matter what view you have, we are all in this world together, and we all need to get along.

I believe in my religion, but it seems like Church nowadays is just all "BELIEVE OR U GON BURN LOL." It's stupid. So I really don't blame people for staying away from it.

g'day Dave,

Thanks for your response to my posts.

You said that 'Science is based on the observation of the natural. It says nothing about the supernatural, because it can't. So yes, science will examine all options within the natural world, because that is the world in which science operates.'

When I thought about this, and about some of the other posts on this subject, it seems to me that you are confusing God and creation.

You are quite right when you say that science cannot study God, or the supernatural. But that does not mean that science cannot study the effects of the supernatural in the natural world. In fact, that is exactly what science does, it studies the natural world. So if there is a God and he did create the natural world, then that is what science studies.

Now if you suspend your own beliefs for a moment, and imagine that there is a God and that he did create the world, wouldn't it be a bit silly to say, a priori, that there isn't a God, and that he didn't create the world? Aren't we then making a faith statement about God? Shouldn't science in fact say 'We really don't know whether there is a God, or whether he created the natural world or not, so we really have to examine the evidence to see if the evidence indicates that he did create, or whether it indicates that there is no such thing as creation and we have to look for some other explanation.'?

As to hypotheses to test for creation, that in itself is no more difficult than creating hypotheses for anything else. We have to ask ourselves 'If God did create the natural world, what would we expect the natural world to look like'. When we come up with answers to that question, we create a hypothesis that will test those answers. And there will be many hypotheses to cover different aspects of the natural world.

We could, for instance, ask the question of the fossill record to test whether life was created in distinct forms, or whether they evolved one from another:

Does the fossil record show clear distinctions between different animal groups, or are there many transitional forms between animal groups?'

A hypothesis could state that:

The fossil record shows few if any transitional forms between animal groups, therefore the fossil record shows that animals were created in distinct groups.

An alternative hypothesis might say:

The fossil record shows many transitional forms between animal groups, therefore the fossil record shows that it is likely that animals evolved from one form to another.

I have no doubt that that these hypotheses are pretty basic and need to be sharpened up a lot, but you get the idea.

Then its just a matter of testing both hypotheses to see which fits the evidence the best. That is science working as it should.

So my contention is that if science says 'There is no such thing as God, and therefore no such thing as creation, therefore we won't consider it as a possibility' it has made a faith statement and it is no longer science but faith.

There are many other things in your post to which I would like to respond, but this is enough for now.

David,

You missed my point. Science is no longer science when it decides, without bothering to test the evidence, that creation is not a possibility. It has then moved from being science, which tests the evidence, to faith, which makes decisions based on a belief system that is not subject to evidence.

My challenge is simple: let science be science, and test the evidence to see where the evidence points, without letting a faith based decision eliminate one point of view from the discussion. My charge is that this is what proponents of evolution have been doing for decades. They have taken a faith based decision to not even consider creation as a possibility, and have to that extent become unscientific. Interestingly, proponents of creation are quite happy for both points of view to be examined scientifically, and are therefore and to that extent more truly scientific than proponents of evolution.

Willem.

Before I go far let me say I understand that atheism and evolution are not inextricably intertwined, only often and deeply-affectionate bedfellows. So while I go back and forth between the two I understand that they are not necessarily "symbiotic" or mutually dependent. However, if creation is shown to be untrue, the Bible fails, as it presents the account as an historic not a metaphorical account. So, while dispelling evolution does not keep an atheist from being an atheist, undermining creation ought to undermine a Christian's faith. If they say it does not, then it is an insubstantial faith, not based on the Bible but on their mere ascription to a title "Christian". And their Christ is not the Christ of the Bible but of their own imagination. More than that, if I, God forbid, ever cast off my profession, I am of the mind that evolution is such a thready line of reasoning that I could not commend my frail mind to believe it, though I be the most ardent agnostic.

> A common misconception, that one. "a-" means "without". Atheism = without belief. Strictly speaking almost eveyr atheist is an agnostic to some degree. I am - it is impossible to disprove the existence of gods, by their nature. I am also agnostic in the same way about the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.

That common misconception is held by some dictionary writers, like my favorite, UK-native Oxford. Atheism: a - without, theos - god; no god. agnosticism: (again) a - without, gnosis - knowledge; without (complete) knowledge. Infidel (or infidelity) seems to be the best fit for what you describe. There is no moral or Bible dig when I say that: Infidel: in - no; fide[l] - belief. I don't say that to be pedantic, but these distinctions are clearly important, which is clear by the fact that we keep coming back to them.

I think the spaghetti monster is a poor representation of the God "hypothesis". However, I do not think God can be proven (nor can creation). If He could then the Bible is untrue, for it says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (cf. Hebrews 11.1-ff). While I rely on the Bible and not science as the only (not primary) pillar of my understanding (and faith more specifically), I know that others do not. Even so, your own so-called science, bears witness against the idea that we are of a composition that has spiritual (immaterial) beginnings. I don't mean to say that this proves that there is a God in a way that is Biblical, is necessary to please God, or is substantive, but that science in all of its inadequacy bears witness to an immaterial first cause. I don't need anyone to call that God, but there was something that is beyond tangibility and scientific/empirical understanding.

Lord Kelvin understood the three laws of thermodynamics, of which we "know" that all things in a closed system (a system which has no external energy source) tend toward chaos - which is generally called entropy. This shows a necessary beginning to this system, because a system that is left without energy will slip into a diffuse, cold, gray, mess of atoms or sub-quarkish material. If you say that there is something larger than the universe that is piping energy into it, then that becomes a part of the closed system, like our sun, and there is still an end to that energy source. The fact that we are not in a state of utter disorder shows that we have not been around for an infinite period.

Which leads in part another of those laws, energy conservation, which says that matter cannot be created, nor destroyed, only converted to energy, and energy cannot be destroyed, only diffused. This shows that there had to be something outside of matter that created all of it, because (at least in our western cause-and-effect understanding) all things have come about as a result of something else. However, if matter cannot be created, whence did it come?

It is possible to say that Kelvin was a crack or a loon and his laws should not have been understood to be laws, like the "fool" that decided the world is flat. However, two problems lie in that: Darwin's theory is still a theory, and even our current laws in science will be subject to the same scrutiny in the future, and nothing is really able to be known. So none of it is worth knowing. I am getting a post-modern headache.

For me, I don't care about science. It is fallible, it gives us medicine that often kills us, theories that sometimes lead to further godlessness, and computers (and we know what a mess they have become). And it is built on minds as incapable as mine, so I know it cannot be trusted. People become tired and are bought by money, etc. I don't rely on this argumentation, because the Bible in all of its seeming fallibility is a much more sure law or word of truth than any silly, scientific hypothesis or law will ever be.

On the subject of Punctuated Equilibrium (PE):

> You misquoted me above.

I am sorry if I did, please forgive me.

While PE is more gradual than my hyperbolic, spaghetti-monster-style analogy may have alluded to, it does not take long to realize that if all of the "gradual changes" take place in PE that are asserted, they lead to a new lifeform that is no longer of the same species and no longer able to mate with others within its species. It is then necessarily imperative that at any time there is a substantial 'upgrade' which in software terms would merit a new version number but in biological terms would merit a new species, that there is member of the complementary gender born in the same generation, so that all of that great new genetic information is not lost. That makes it amazingly difficult to continue these new species since the "odds" of these substantive and positive mutations appearing not only in one specimen, but in two contemporaneous and sexually complementary specimens is impossibly ridiculous. There is an understanding within the scientific title species that you cannot cross-breed unto viable offspring outside of a species, i.e. the mule (horse and donkey), etc.

I think it is valuable to note that mutation is a word with a negative connotation. While mutation only alludes to the fact that something has changed, it usually assumes that it is for the worse. We have not yet documented beneficial mutation in the animal kingdom through our own experience. We only assume that it is possible, in order to offer a crutch to the ailing evolution. So then, mutations are not so far able to produce anything helpful, rather our records have only proven that these changes are harmful (as before, cancers, Down's syndrome and other genetic/chromosomal disorders, etc.), while I understand that there remain exceptions to that rule outside of the animal kingdom, namely among bacteria and viruses. My point: mutations always work out for the worse in our records, it is only in the minds of hopeful evolutionary priests (and their unfortunate parishioners) that it holds hopes of new species more capable than their ancestors.

Dave, I am a full-time student with a lot of webs to build, an internship (co-op sort of), and another part-time job, to boot. I am sure we will both benefit if I leave off here, because I cannot afford to put so much time into this dialog. But I really appreciate your prompt and thoughtful responses.

Sincerely, David Eldridge

David,

Your comment:

>> expect creation to be allowed to do this without passing the same level of scientific scrutiny that evolution has and continues to.<<

is simply not true. Creationists are more than happy to to have creation theory pass the same level of scientific scrutiny that any other sicience is subject to. Reputable creationists are always ready to have their theory tested under scientific conditions.

If you are under a different impression then someone has misled you.

I ask the question - Why are the proponents of evolution so scared of creation that they will not even examine the evidence? What's the problem guys? I evolution is right, you have nothing to fear! But the problem is of course that it might be wrong, and creation right. What then? Then you would have to admit there is a creator! Is that the reason for your fear?

David, your claim that:

>>The scientists of the time were Christian. They examined, tested and debated evolution themselves, and still do, and found that creation didn't match the evidence and evolution did.<<

is also not true. Isaac Newton did not accept evolution. Nor did Pascal. Nor did most of the scientists of the day. It was mainly churchmen, not scientists, who accepted it. And not even all of them accepted it. There were very many who did not. And there are very many reputable and qualified scientists today who do not accept evolution and who do accept creation. To claim otherwise is simply wrong.

My challenge and my charge remain. Test the evidence to see which theory of origins best fits the evidence. That's my challenge. My charge is that evolution has been unwilling to do this for decades and is therefore and to that extent unscientific.


Willem.

G'day Dave,

I have included a list of scientists with doctorates in a science related field who do take a creation point of view. I'm sorry the list is lengthy and takes up a lot of space on your blog, but there it is. The list is not exhaustive. Please note also that there is a wide range of disciplines represented.

Dave, you accuse me, without a shred of evidence, of being 'sceptical of anything that seemed to challenge what their holy book had told them.'

So I question you. Have you ever seriously enterained the idea of creation? Is your mind open enough to consider that the world might well have been created? Or is it so closed that you can only accept evolution as a possibility?

For the record, I have examined both theories (if we may call them that), over a lengthy period of time, and for quite a long time was open to both.

So, Dave, I have approached the problem with an open mind. Have you?

Willem

Note: Individuals on this list must possess a doctorate in a science-related field.

Dr Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
Dr E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
Dr James Allan, Geneticist
Dr Steve Austin, Geologist
Dr S.E. Aw, Biochemist
Dr Thomas Barnes, Physicist
Dr Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
Dr Don Batten, Plant physiologist, tropical fruit expert
Dr John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
Dr Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
Dr Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology
Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology
Dr Raymond G. Bohlin, Biologist
Dr Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology
Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
Dr David R. Boylan, Chemical Engineer
Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
Dr David Catchpoole, Plant Physiologist (read his testimony)
Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics
Dr Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
Dr Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering
Dr Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist
Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education
Dr John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
Dr Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist
Dr Bob Compton, DVM
Dr Ken Cumming, Biologist
Dr Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
Dr William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
Dr Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering
Dr Lionel Dahmer, Analytical Chemist
Dr Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
Dr Chris Darnbrough, Biochemist
Dr Nancy M. Darrall, Botany
Dr Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
Dr Douglas Dean, Biological Chemistry
Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
Dr David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
Dr Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
Dr Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr Ted Driggers, Operations research
Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research
Dr André Eggen, Geneticist
Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
Prof. Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry
Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
Dr Alan Galbraith, Watershed Science
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Dave,

I don't know what you want when you ask for a 'scientific theory of creation'. There is a significant body of scientific creation work that has been done and that is freely available to you and to anyone who cares to look. Perhaps I could refer you to this site:

http://www.trueorigin.org/creatheory.asp

but you could just as easily have found it yourself if you cared to look.

BTW, can you tell me what the 'scientific theory of evolution' is?

But you have never really answered my question - why do the proponents of evolution not even want to entertain the idea of creation? You say that you have seriously considered it, but from your own comments you indicate that from a very early early age you found the idea ridiculous, so I wonder if you really have. But proponents of evolution do not want to submit the evidence to both possibilities. Given that the presuppositions of both creation and evolution are unprovable, to eliminate one without testing it with the evidence is an act of faith. So why do proponents of evolution avoid submitting the evidence to testing?

Willem

Gentlemen,

I came looking for some cheat sheets and stumbled on this blog and had to offer my own opinion and that is all it is.

You all seem to have "points of view" regarding the possibility of creation vs evolution however let me put it to you all in a different, and perhaps more important light - Creation or Evolution aside, do you believe in the possibility of life after death? I don't want to sidetrack anyone from the original debate but the real question we all seem to want answered is just that.

It seems that forever Man has debated the possibility/reality of the creation as opposed to evolution and regardless of whatever religion/lack of religion you "support"(I too am a Christian) you must ultimately wonder why are we here and what happens when we die? I have made my choice based on the evidence I've heard to date over my lifetime, including the possibility of the Creation or evolution and ultimately one thing has directed my faith which makes both of those topics seem irrelevant.

If, in fact, Christianity is the one truth in the universe then I shall have the priviledge of spending eternity, once again ETERNITY, in a wonderful relationship with Jesus Christ and all those who choose to follow the Word, for ALL time. If I am wrong, is there anything fundamentally wrong with doing what we are asked to do in the Bible? Is loving all of mankind a bad thing? Is helping those who cannot help themselves a crime? Or how about giving of yourself as opposed to pursuing your own selfish ambitions like so many people today, myself included, I never said I was perfect? I choose to live my life this way in fear of an awesome God, who promises that all who believe in God and follow the Word(Jesus Christ) we shall have eternal life. If I am wrong than I have lived a good life and can die knowing that I did but if you are a non-believer, ask yourself...Can you really afford to be wrong? It's your call. Go Creation Go! ;-)

"15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever." 1 John 2:15-17 NIV

I hope I didn't upset anyone with my interlude but I had to get in on this one. Cheers!

Hi Dave, I got that right didn't I, Dave? ;-)

>> I came looking for some cheat sheets and stumbled on this blog

>Did you stumble from free will ... or was it pre-ordained? ;)

Actually a guy I work with named Jeff told me about your site ;-)

>> do you believe in the possibility of life after death?

>No. I believe that while we're here, we'd better make the most of it!

I used to feel the same way but more recently I've had thoughts about existence, in particular my own, go figure, and I've concluded that, as I'm sure someone else has already said "There must be more to life than this!".

I chose to re-examine my early Christian upbringing in more detail and I went searching for answers about this particular faith which I had abandoned at the age of 17(I am 37 now).

I went to several local churches and discovered that not much had changed, same old boring sermons and I practically fell asleep in the pews. Then, perhaps pre-ordained, a friend suggested another church which was about a 45 minute drive from home, and I thought you've got to be kidding me! They insisted that I try it and so one Sunday I did and I found my new home on Sunday mornings.

This particular Church does not promote Christianity as merely a "religion"; as a matter of fact they rebuke the word religion as it merely conjures up images of self-righteousness and holier-than-thou know-it-alls, whew!

They promote that Christianity is not about religion at all but rather it's about establishing and maintaining a right relationship with Jesus Christ. We are thus a non-denominational Christian Church with no enemies, I think?

Anyone can come and join us or even make their views and opinions known either for or against and they will not be persecuted. Our pastor is very passionate and likes to present his material using movie clips which is far more entertaining than listening to some tired old fellow, completely bereft of passion, leaning on his pulpit reciting scripture. We also have a rock band that plays good, driving Christian music, throughout the service. WoW!

I never thought I would like that stuff but it actually is really good. Some really good bands I've recently heard include Lifehouse, Casting Crowns, MercyMe, Payable On Death, Hillsong, and even U2! I'm certain you can find clips of their music online somewhere if you're interested.

>It is also a question that assumes that if any gods do exist, they are stupid. Apparently, those who follow the school of thought that "might as well believe, no harm" seem to think that their deities will appreciate them playing the odds and reward them for it.

I'm certain there are people that follow that train of thought and unfortunately they are probably living unfulfilled lives whether Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Aztec, Inca, Roman, Greek, Omnian or even Jedi ;@. I do not, I am a firm believer and it is rewarding. I am still learning more as each day passes. Having faith requires a great deal of dedication, personal sacrifice, which I believe is one of the keys as to why "religion" is so misunderstood and why so many people believe IT has failed US. When in fact WE have failed IT, once again regardless of faith. There are not enough people willing to take the time to understand why they have a chosen faith, regardless of the faith or denomination, they do it merely because their parents and their parents parents did. I have made my own choice, and my folks, who are Catholics, thought I had joined a cult because I chose to be baptized and reborn even though I was baptized as an infant and that we don't have 1st or 2nd readings at our church and we don't have a gospel per se, we don't sing hymms and we don't respond to our pastor with the same little sayings at the end of each of his sentences. We don't have communion in church but rather promote the idea of breaking bread(or whatever you feel like, last tuesday we had a real spicy chili!) with our friends, Christian or otherwise with no false pretenses. People don't dress in their "Sunday Best", I usually wear jeans and a tshirt, more recently sweaters because it's getting so damn cold here in Canada as we approach winter. We get together and worship passionately with song, conversation and lots of laughter! Enough about that...

>> Is loving all of mankind a bad thing?

>No. Though it does seem that the evidence would indicate that religions have a problem with loving anyone not a part of the same group.

This is so true...if only, ONLY, everyone could figure that one out for themselves and realize we are all part of the same family, the human family...pity.

>> I choose to live my life this way in fear

>What kind of god would create people and then insist they live their lives in fear of him?

I use the term fear loosely, perhaps a more appropriate term would be in AWE?

Anyways, nice to weigh in once again, I really need to get back to work, hehe, spending too much time blogging not enough time working, Oh wait, I work in Government, it's all good....

Hi Dave, I must say that I admire your persipacity in following through in this thread. I honestly hope you managed to generate some interest in looking more deeply at the Theory of Evolution for some of the doubters in this thread.

I hold an atheistic world view, but if there was one thing that could shake my non-belief in a god(s), it would be the sheer simplicity yet inspiring breadth of effect on the natural world, that the theory encompasses.